Saturday, November 01, 2008

a conversation

this will be my only post about proposition 8, i know that everyone in california are blogging about it. so here are some of my thoughts on the subject, though not nearly ALL my thoughts.
...
"Make no mistake about it, brothers and sisters, in the months and years ahead, events are likely to require each member to decide whether or not he will follow the First Presidency. Members will find it more difficult to halt longer between two opinions. President Marion G. Romney said, many years ago, that he had 'never hesitated to follow the counsel of theAuthorities of the Church even though it crossed my social, professional orpolitical life.'" This is hard doctrine, but it is particularly vital doctrine in a society which is becoming more wicked. In short, brothers and sisters, not being ashamed of the gospel of Jesus Christ includes not being ashamed of the prophets of Jesus Christ. . . . Your discipleship may see the time when such religious convictions are discounted. . . . This new irreligious imperialism seeks to disallow certain opinions simply because those opinions grow out of religious convictions."Resistance to abortion will be seen as primitive. Concern over the institution of the family will be viewed as untrendy and unenlightened....Before the ultimate victory of the forces of righteousness, some skirmishes will be lost. Even in these, however, let us leave a record so that the choices are clear, letting others do as they will in the face of prophetic counsel. There will also be times, happily, when a minor defeat seems probable, but others will step forward, having been rallied to rightness bywhat we do. We will know the joy, on occasion, of having awakened a slumbering majority of the decent people of all races and creeds which was, till then, unconscious of itself. Jesus said that when the fig trees put forth their leaves, 'summer is nigh.' Thus warned that summer is upon us, let us not then complain of the heat."
--- Elder Neal A. Maxwell
...
my husband and i both feel very strongly about proposition 8.
...
that is not to say we have anything against those who are homosexuals, we actually have a close family friend who recently was married to his partner, i guess you could say "husband" now.
...
that being said, we don't think it's a behavior that we can condone or say it is ok, and we don't want to teach our children that it is. as we lead by example, we are voting YES on proposition 8. we've done our research on both sides of the argument, and prayed about it. and we feel we are making the right decision.
...
we've been advised to join the conversation on the proposition 8 that is on the ballot in november in california which will protect traditional marriage, if it does not pass then same-sex marriage will continue to be legal in california. the following is a real conversation that i had with my sister heidi, who lives in utah.
...
7:58pmJodi
yeah i know ... i was just rubbing it in that i live in cali ...
although rob and i talked about moving up there someday today
7:59pmHeidi
no way
you guys, the never, no way, no how guys
7:59pmJodi
all b/c of this prop 8 madness ... and not being able to let our kids ride their bikes down the street without our supervision
not anytime soon, but ... it might be a possibility ... someday
8:00pmHeidi
it is nice to let the kids run the neighborhood and play outside and not stress
8:02pmJodi
yeah .. that would be one nice thing ... although the con list is much longer than the pro list
8:02pmHeidi
maybe, maybe not
utah isn't as bad as it used to be
trust me
8:03pmJodi
haha ... and thats why it's moved to a "maybe" position instead of a "no way" position
you're so lucky that you live in utah so you don't have to hear about prop 8 every 5 seconds!!! i'm SOOOO sick of it
8:04pmHeidi
i still hear about it every 10 seconds through proxy
8:07pmHeidi
and frankly i think the whole thing has been blown WAY OUT of proportion
8:08pmJodi
i do and i don't ... the more i think about it, the more i realize that is HAS to pass ... and if it doesn't there will defiantely be more talk about moving out of state, or putting aidan in private school
8:09pmJodi
right now most people are only focusing on one point ... but i think it's like throwing a pebble into a pond and we cannot fully comprehend all the ripples that one small pebble will make
8:09pmHeidi
short answer, why is that?
or what makes you say that now?
8:10pmJodi
i think most states view california as a trend setter ... and if we legalize it, more will follow ...
8:10pmHeidi
definitely
but more already have
if it passes in cali, it's only a matter of time before it's a federal issue
8:11pmJodi
and i also think that legalizing it will make it more mainstream and people who wouldn't have "tried" it before would be more willing to, since it would not have the negative-ness to it
8:11pmHeidi
maybe, but it will always be a big minority
8:11pmJodi
for sure ... it will most definately be a federal issue .. and if cali legalizes it, it will have more credibility federally
8:12pmHeidi
yep
i know that's why so many are making a big deal on both sides
but i have to say, i see the equality/rights angle
8:12pmJodi
sure ... but minorities still exist ... i have friends who have to explain to their 2nd graders why a fellow student in their class has 2 mommies ... it's just gonna get worse
8:12pmHeidi
i know
that's the hard part
8:13pmJodi
i see the equal right side ... BUT, passing prop 8 WILL not take away rights that they currently hold. they already have civil unions which are EQUAL to marriages ... they just don't have that title currently the marriage license application no longer says bride and groom ... it says party 1 and party 2 ... how SAD is that?!
8:14pmHeidi
yep- that's the part i don't understand- as far as arguments (both sides) go
8:15pmJodi
this is about preserving MARRIAGE ... marriage is between 1 man and 1 woman
8:15pmHeidi
yeah, i know
8:15pmJodi
exactly ... there is a couple in cali who are refusing to sign their license because it doesn't say bride and groom
8:15pmHeidi
that's why i would vote yes
8:15pmJodi
exactly
8:15pmHeidi
drama drama drama
8:16pmJodi
i don't think the world will end if gay marriage is legailized ... but i do think there will be many consequences that we can't forsee
8:16pmHeidi
i think we should make drunk vegas weddings illegal to preserve the sanctity of marriage
8:17pmJodi
well, yes, that too ... i agree, there are problems with marriage , how it is now ... but does that mean we should make the problems WORSE?
8:17pmHeidi
oh, i was just kidding
but, yes, the point is...
marriage in america is pretty sad in a lot of respects
8:18pmJodi
i agree ...
8:18pmHeidi
and the divorce rate is a joke
so what's adding one more dysfunction??
8:19pmJodi
so ... why try to save something thats broken? just throw it ALL away?!
8:19pmHeidi
no, of course not, i was just joking
but the point is that those dysfunctional problems affect the good ones how, really??
8:19pmJodi
hehe ... that's the no on prop 8's argument ... that gay should have the right to be as "miserable as the rest of us"
8:19pmHeidi
it doesn't take anything away from what we have, does it?
equal misery for all
8:20pmJodi
this problem affects my child in school ... divorce and affairs do not
8:20pmHeidi
and whoop there it is

22 comments:

Amy, Rudy, & Miranda said...

I think this is the first time this whole issue has hit me so hard. I've read dozens of blogs, but this one stands out above them all. Thank you for your thoughts Jodi. It's time to stop rationalizing...stop being part of the world's screwed up logic...and start standing up for what we believe so that it's clear to ALL whose side we're on.

Kerstin said...

We voted on this same thing a few years ago in Nevada. I think that the plan of salvation makes it clear why marriage should only be between a man and a woman. I think that if this proposition passes it will further add to the break down of the family and society as a whole.

Kimberly Bluestocking said...

The final lines of your chat with Heidi hit the nail right on the head. If Prop 8 fails, it won't have much impact on your marriage or mine. However, it WILL impact what our kids are taught about marriage, either directly in schools or indirectly by having more and more friends with two married moms or dads.

rookie cookie said...

What a hot button issue this is. At the beginning of all the "madness", Ethan and I were frustrated. We have good friends and family who are homosexuals. We were really disenchanted with the church's involvement. My aunt and her partner and important people to us. At first, we only saw the denial of marriage and it seemed hurtful. But once more and more came to the surface, we saw the consequences. Although we most likely will not live in California again, I see the problem effecting nieces and nephew and friend's children that I love dearly. That alone is reason to vote yes.

It is hard for people not to turn the issue into a gay witch hunt. At the beginning of the church getting involved, a lot of people had the wrong idea. I even had a BIL say, "We can't tolerate them anymore." Back up BIL, you're wrong. The line between defining marriage the correct way and loving homosexuals is very fine. It is easier to see when prayerfully sought out.

I can proudly say that I really took action in this election and made sure I was able to still vote out of state. When I was filling out my ballot and got to Prop 8, I said a prayer. A prayer that my vote would make a difference. A prayer that the efforts of the members in California had not been useless.

So here's to Prop 8! November 4th is going to be intense!

Christopher Maloy said...

Cool post and I refuse to get into anymore prop 8 discussions. So I will not post too much on this.

You should ask Heidi before posting your private conversations though (for the future), I am sure she will be fine with it.

Good luck on November 2nd. We will see where prop 8 leads. Voice of the people and all.

Just to let you know if you are really concerned with your kids there is home schooling, charter schools, and private religious schools to protect your kids from learning the district curriculum.

Cheers.

Danny and Kristen Woodbury said...

Aidan a maniac... no way! He was a ton of fun... I just felt bad for distracting all the people in the pews behind us! Maybe the front rows aren't a place for us!:) But it was fun!!! I loved your post on Prop 8 thoughts!

Heidi Maloy said...

Jodi- I REALLY like that you added that Neal A. Maxwell quote... and no, I don't mind this time, but next time, check with me before you put my quick thoughts out there for everyone to read... ;) I mostly say that because I was really trying to lay low on this debate. But our conversation must have had an effect on you, and yes, we should do it more often.

Jen said...

We can already see what is happening in Massachusetts in the schools as a response to their laws--I really truly never want to be in the position where I feel I *have* to home school my child to have them develop strong moral values, but this would be an issue on which I wouldn't think twice.

Many states have already ammended their constitutions to define marriage as *only* between a man and a woman. I'm hoping Prop 8 passes, and was disappointed to see that Steve Young's wife helping to bankroll the opposition to it. It's sad when people justify the choices of those close to them by changing their beliefs--good for you for your strong testimony.

I love love loved the Maxwell quote.

Christopher Maloy said...

Prop 8 has nothing to do with kids in school. It is about the right to marry and the State's role in that.

Dang I said I would not get involved in this.

C and S (Mostly S) said...

Thank you for pointing out that they already have the same rights as married couples through "civil unions". We too are voting on this in Arizona and it has been a big argument here as well. We just don't get as much media attention since Cali has it on the ballot. However, I am with you this is something I do not want taught to my kids. I also agree that legalizing marriage for people that are gay will make more people go that way. I am sad that the people who want you to vote "no" make it sound like they don't have the rights they currently do. I wish that somewhere in politics people would tell the "truth". Wouldn't that be great! Well good luck in Cali..I am pretty sure our Prop is going to pass we are a red state here in AZ so no surprise!

Gina Rochelle said...

thanks for the quote, not let's go read that conference issue that just came in the mail... :o)

T.J. Shelby said...

Here's the thing...(sigh)...nevermind.

Jessica said...

I just came across your blog, and I'm not here to argue for or against Prop 8. I am commenting on your last argument where you mention "this problem affects my child in school...divorce and affairs do not."
I want to make the point that divorce CAN affect your child whether you realize this or not at this point in time. My niece Katie's best friends parents got divorced (she was 7 at the time). MY niece, whose parents marriages was strong and stable, regressed beyond belief. She started having separation anxiety from her parents and had tantrums when she was getting dropped off from school, when she had none before. After weeks of attempting to talk to her, they came to the realization that Katie's idea of home and stability had been shattered by the divorce of her best friends parents. She got scared that this would happen to her parents, and at this point in her life, her world view changed. She realized that the nuclear family was not always invincible, and got terrified that this horrible thing would happen to her as well, as it did to her best friend.
I just want to make this point because divorce by others may impact your children, contrary to your last statement your blog. It is something you will very likely have to deal with and explain to your children at some point in their childhood.

Brenda said...

Jodi-I'm not in California so I haven't a vote on what happens in the state but I am very concerned about how this will impact our nation. Thanks for the post - very well put together and I agree.

Oh, so Rachel found my blog and pointed me to yours! It has been years but I hope you don't mind if I take a read through. It is fun to see what everyone has been doing!

Nicole Shelby said...

I can't say nevermind like . I do have a few concerns. If you truly believe that homosexuals have all the same rights via civil unions...then, how exactly is Prop8 preserving marriage or having the changes that you speak of? If Prop8 changes nothing but a name - then why? Allowing a word will not change the frequency of our children's exposure to homosexuality. BUt, I'll leave that alone for now.

I actually really wanted to address your last point the most. You are really unconcerned about divorce and affairs? You think the impact of homosexual marriages can have a huge impact on our children's education, but the affect of divorce/affairs is negligible? I have to disagree here. The high percentage of "shacking up", infidelity, extramarital fornication, postponement of commitment, ease of dissolution of marriage, etc. - all of these issues are huge! Not just do I want to teach my children that marriage is between a man and a woman...but I want to teach about what a marriage is - and what it is not. All the problems with adults and their varied degrees of success in committing to a partner trickles, heck it pours, down into the lives of their children, the lives of their friends, the lives of their extended family, the lives of acquaintances, and those upon who the affect might not be as noticeable.

HAve I had to deal with my children and their knowledge of homosexuality yet? No.
Have I had to deal with my children and their knowledge of divorce yet? Absolutely.
Forget dealing with a friend with 2 daddies. We are already dealing with 1 daddy.

Now that I've rambled on. The point of my blather is not to discount what you obviously feel so strongly about. The point of my blather is to make you think about what you are saying as well. The problems and concerns with what we need our children to learn about - inside and outside the home...are not limited to the abstract possible problems that you might one day have to deal with.

Before I freak out about what my children might possibly pick up about the family life of someone else...I must be more concerned with what they are learning about family life within our own home. What values am I teaching them? What are they learning based on what they see/experience every day. What kind of example and I giving?

To say I am not concerned about Prop8 is untrue. To say I am more concerned with other issues is definitely true.

All that aside - remember that I love ya!

Jodi Jean said...

regarding divorce and affairs ... the difference is that they will not be TAUGHT in schools. they do not teach that divorce or affairs, or any other horrible things that happen are normal and acceptable. yes i know my children will be exposed to that ... i cannot change that ... *this* i CAN make a difference in.

i know that it is my responsibility to teach my children about marriage (among many other very important things) ... and i know it is not the responsibility of the schools. that being said they do anyways ... and i don't want my children TAUGHT in school that marriage is anything but 1 man and 1 woman.

The Watts said...

I just want to thank you for posting that, it has been big news here in Utah and of course a major debate being so close to the church headquarters, it is good to know that our members are standing strong even amongst the fight, we have been praying for the people of California and like I told my husband last night, California often suprises the rest of the country when they stand up for what is right!

The Watts said...

Just a side note after reading all the hot comments, coming from a divorce and knowing the cost it has cost my children, I understand the point you were making and it is true and it has been in the process for a while now, the schools trying to teach and make normal that which is not normal and is contrary to the Lord's commandments I applaud you for standing up and making a stand even with good friends and family members giving you flack.

Adri said...

Thanks for the post, Jodi. I really don't envy you guys out there - I almost feel guilty for not having to confront this problem that my family & friends are putting up such a huge fight for. I really admire you and everyone else who is taking a stand.

Alissa said...

thanks for your post, jodi! and thanks for all of your comments on our blog. i like to lay low with commenting, but i just wanted to say that i also applaud you for posting this. i'm praying for all of you folks in CA today! i really hope prop 8 passes!

Heidi Maloy said...

Wow, Jod, looks like a couple people wanted to weigh in....hahaha... and yet, we still don't know the results!?

Kemari Nielson said...

hi! I am not a Californian, but I am a member of the Church, a voter, a free-thinker, sister of a gay brother, and the aftermath of growing up in the most liberal school distict in america near Boulder,Co. I had a lesbian teacher in 7th grade explain to us just "how" homosexuals had sex! I never told my parents that, but it has effected me a lot. I cant imagine kids pondering this any earlier than I was forced to in the 7th grade. At first I was neutral on Prop 8, as I am a Utah voter now and didnt care about Ca legislation. Then the Church became involoved and I wasn't sure what to make of that choice, but will never question a prophet or the Gen Authorites. It wasn' t until the results came out that I realized the fight and truly feel that the traditional family is one of the Right things we have left here in this world. i think this has caused a lot of straight couples to rethink the value of their marriages, and what they mean. I do not feel like a blind Mormon follower who just does as shes told. i know this to be true for myself and am proud to stand up for the Gospel. Haven't we been talking about these days forever? its funny how people cant take the heat or feel that they are superior because they are going against the norm. That is their right I guess, just dont yell at me for standing up for my rights. I am not stupid! They can have their Garriage, it can be thier own "happy" thing. Love the sinner hate the sin and focus on your families is what I am getting out of this.